DNA Group 12
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International Lindsay* DNA Group 12

"Lindsays of the Mount, Virginia & Rockingham County, North Carolina"

The defining term "Lindsays of the Mount, Virginia & Rockingham County, North Carolina" is used in an attempt to establish a basic geography for the founder of the composite DNA Group 12.

Melville (Mel) C. Lindsay is the Group Administrator for DNA Group 12 and can be reached via e-mail by clicking on Mel Lindsay.  Mel is a very knowledgeable researcher for this grouping of Lindsays and should be your first contact for questions pertaining to DNA Group 12 genealogy and in the determination of the Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA).

The DNA Group 12 is a grouping composed of five (5) participants.

Click on DNA Data Spreadsheet to view the DNA marker values for the current participants of DNA Group 12.

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Participant L0177 is the only perfect match with the DNA Group 12 modal haplotype.

Participant L0084 has in his possession, the family bible (publication date of 1836) that was presented to his great-great grandfather John Mott Lindsay (1809-1901) by John Mott Lindsay's father, Robert Lindsay (1774-1837), the ggg grandfather of participant L0084.  The Lindsay Surname DNA Project Coordinator has been provided with a photocopy of the "family pages" from this bible.  In the front of this bible is a handwritten message stating ... "This bible is presented to John M. Lindsay by his father Robert Lindsay and to his oldest son if he thinks proper."  In a space at the end of the Apocrypha of this bible was found the following handwritten message from Robert Lindsay.  "As my children may be xxx ( believed to be the word curious) to know where my origin.  It was from Scotland our progenitor settled at Cherry Point - Westmoreland County Va as a church parson under the old Establishment from which we descended as the  xxxxx (word that cannot be deciphered) by my father Opie Lindsay.  My mother descended from the Lamkin and Chatten Family of Westmoreland County, Va.   Robt Lindsay"

The first entry in the Marriages section of the Family Record section of this bible recorded the marriage of Robert Lindsay to Elizabeth Wren on 28 June 1798 in Fairfax County, Virginia.

From a handwritten page, in this bible, penned by John M. Lindsay and dated 29 June 1899, John M. Lindsay states that he was born 13 December 1809 in Fairfax County, Virginia.  He further stated that when he was about three years old (ca 1812), he and his parents (Robert & Elizabeth Wren) moved to Fluvanna County, Virginia.  John also stated that he married Miss Nancy W. Law of Franklin County, Virginia in the Fall of 1832.  He states that he and Nancy moved to Madison, Rockingham County, North Carolina in October 1835 where they joined the First Missionary Baptist Church.

The family bible most assuredly establishes the Lindsay ancestry for participant L0084 as it is shown below in the graphic.

From the 43-marker analysis, L0008 has a two marker mismatch with L0084, while L0072 also has a two marker mismatch with L0084.  Finally L0008 has a two marker mismatch with L0072, thus two marker mismatches (41 out of 43 matches) amongst all three participants !

What more can we say with some degree of authority about this Lindsay lineage?  From "The Lindsays of America", Margaret Isabella Lindsay stated in 1889 (see page 26) that "the Reverend David Lindsay, Episcopal clergyman of Wicomico parish, Northumberland County in Virginia .... came to the colony during the reign of Charles the First" ... between 1645 and 1655.

We also know, from the work of Donald Whyte (professional genealogist UK) in 1976 and others, that Sir Jerome Lindsay of Annatland (ca 1562-1642) was the father of Rev. David Lindsay (1603-1667).   Much of the ancestry beyond Sir Jerome Lindsay is well accepted and proven by the ancient records of Scotland and the Lindsay family. 

From the "Lindsays of America", page 35, we also are told that the original homestead of the Rev. David Lindsay was located on Cherry Point Neck, Yiocomico/Wicomico River, Northumberland County, Virginia.  Cherry Point, Virginia is also the site of the grave of the Rev. David Lindsay (1603-1667).  Rev. David Lindsay's grave marker displays 3 April 1667 as his date of death, one day after the date of his will.

Keep in mind that Westmoreland County, VA was formed from Northumberland County, VA.

On page 36 of the "Lindsays of America", we find Margaret Isabella Lindsay trying to "sort out" the family of Rev. David Lindsay.  It is believed that Rev. David Lindsay was married to a Susanna (maiden name unknown but possibly Opie).  Based on the April 2, 1667 will of Rev. David Lindsay, we know he solely acknowledged only a daughter Helen Lindsay as sole heiress.  It is believed that Helen Lindsay lived her entire life in England and never lived in Virginia.  We know that Helen Lindsay was married to (1) William Wathen on 20 May 1667 and (2) Thomas Opie ca 1671, both of Bristol, England.  We also know that Helen Lindsay's 2nd husband, Thomas Opie, referred in his will to a Robert Lindsay as his brother-in-law.  To acquire this designation as "brother-in-law" to Thomas Opie, this Robert Lindsay could have been either the brother of Thomas Opie's wife, Helen or the husband of Thomas Opie's sister, possibly another Susanna Opie.

Margaret Isabella Lindsay, in 1889, believed that Robert Lindsay was the son of the Rev. David Lindsay and simply preceded his father in death (see page 36 & 38 of "The Lindsays of America"), which she concluded was the reason that Robert Lindsay was not mentioned in the will of Rev. David Lindsay. 

We know that Rev. David Lindsay died in 1667.  We know that his daughter, Helen, married Thomas Opie circa 1671.  Thus for Robert Lindsay to be in the will of Thomas Opie, Robert would have had to be alive after 1671, which is four years after the death of Rev. David Lindsay.  Either this Robert Lindsay was not the son of Rev. David Lindsay or there were other reasons he was not in the will of Rev. David Lindsay.  It is the belief of this writer (Ron Lindsay) that the Robert Lindsay referred to in the will of Thomas Opie was the husband of the sister of Thomas Opie.  This unproven conclusion does not rule out the possibility that this Robert Lindsay was also related to the Rev. David Lindsay in some way, e.g. nephew, etc. and thus also related to Helen Lindsay Wathen Opie.

It is the opinion of the DNA project Coordinator, that documentation is not available that would support any conclusion that the Robert Lindsay mentioned in the will of Thomas Opie is the brother of Thomas Opie's wife, Helen Lindsay, and thus the son of Rev. David Lindsay.

If we could believe that Robert Lindsay (ca 1641 - bef 1667, and possibly married to Susanna Opie) of Northumberland County, VA was the son of the Rev. David Lindsay (1603-1667) and that this same Robert Lindsay was the ancestor of Opie Lindsay (1745-1815), see graphic below, we could conclude that the DNA represented by the DNA Group 12, would also represent the DNA of Sir Jerome Lindsay of Annatland (ca 1562 - 1642).  What we need to prove this conjecture is to DNA test a proven descendant of the Annatland Lindsays!

If we could prove the descent of DNA Group 12 from Sir Jerome Lindsay of Annatland, it would most likely disprove the notion that Thomas Lindsay of Kingswark (? - ca 1607 Leith, Scotland) was descended from the Lindsays of the Byres, since Sir Jerome Lindsay of Annatland shares a common ancestor with the progenitor of the Lindsays of the Byres.  Nonetheless, the DNA Group 1 is now believed to represent the DNA of Thomas Lindsay of Kings Wark.  However if we were to conclude that Thomas Lindsay of Kings Wark and Sir Jerome Lindsay of Annatland shared a common ancestor, we would expect the Y-chromosome STR DNA profiles of DNA Groups 1 & 12 to be very similar, when in reality the modal haplotypes for these two DNA Groups display 25 out of 43 mismatching markers with eleven (11) of the 25 mismatching markers displaying multi-step mismatches.  Thus based on the Lindsay Surname DNA Project data and the current genetic thinking, we can conclude without any doubt that DNA Groups 1 and 12 do not share a common ancestor in the timeframe which would be meaningful to genealogical surname research!  Thus which of these DNA groups are related to the Lindsays of the Byres, if either?  The search continues!

It is also acknowledged that the genealogical descent of DNA Group 12 participants L0008 & L0084 from Opie Lindsay (1745-1815) is in conflict with the perceived genealogical descent of participant L0003 from the same Opie Lindsay.  This conflict will be removed when it can be proven which participant is the legitimate descendant of Opie Lindsay (1745-1815).  What we do know at this point from the DNA evidence is that the participants from DNA Group 12 (I1 deep ancestry haplogroup) and L0003 (R1b deep ancestry haplogroup) cannot descend from the same Lindsay progenitor in America.

In conclusion, the person we have lost track of in this analysis, and in fact know very little about, is Rev. David Lindsay's brother, Robert (? - 1675) ... see graphic below.  Is it possible that Robert Lindsay (ca 1641 - after 1671, and possibly married to Susanna Opie) of Northumberland County, VA was the son of Robert (? - 1675), and thus nephew of Rev. David Lindsay?  Rev. David Lindsay's brother, Robert (? - 1675) was still alive eight years after the death of Rev. David Lindsay (1603-1667).

If you have information, accompanied by the appropriate citations, that demonstrate how any one of these Lindsay lineages in DNA Group 12 are connected, please contact Mel Lindsay, Group Administrator, DNA Group 12.

Reference Notes

  1. Proper Analysis of DYS389-1 & DYS389-2 Marker Mutations.

In analyzing the marker values in the table representing this DNA Group, it is important to remember the following in your analysis of loci DYS389-1 and DYS389-2 matches and mismatches.

  1. The loci DYS389-1 and DYS389-2 are two legitimate lengths of DNA but move in tandem.
  2. DYS389-1 refers to the length of only one portion of the DYS389 marker.
  3. DYS389-2 refers to the total length of the DYS389 marker. Therefore, when there is a one step mutation at DYS389-1, it will also appear to be in DYS389-2.
  4. When comparing one individual to another, if the values for two individuals differ by one repeat at DYS389-1, that represents a one-step mismatch.
  5. If the values for the same two individuals differ also by one repeat at DYS389-2, then it should only be counted as one combined mutation for DYS389-1 & DYS389-2.
  6. If the marker values for two individuals differ by one repeat mismatch at DYS389-1 and a two repeat mismatch at DYS389-2, then it should be counted as two separate mismatches or mutations.
  7. There is another and potentially even more confusing situation that could occur at marker DYS389. If the marker values for two individuals differ by one repeat mismatch at DYS389-1 and then a perfect match at DYS389-2 for these same two individuals. This should be counted as two separate marker mismatches since the value mismatch at DYS389-1 was offset by a mutation in the opposite "direction" from the value found at DYS389-2 and appears to cancel out the mutation that occurred at DYS389-1.
  8. However, keep in mind there can be a mutation at DYS389-2 that will not affect the length found at DYS389-1.

End of Reference Notes

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Lindsay Code No.: L0008
Surname of Participant: Lindsay
Earliest Known Progenitor: Robert Lindsay b. ca 1710 Northumberland County, VA, d. Sept 11, 1784 Fairfax County, VA, married Susanna (maiden name unknown, but thought to be Opie) in 1740.
 
Lindsay Code No.: L0072
Surname of Participant: Lindsay
Earliest Known Progenitor: Rev. Robert Lindsay b. London, England, d. Dec. 22, 1890 Montreal, Canada, married Patience Kemp.  Rev Robert Lindsay graduated Bishop's College, Lenoxville, Quebec and was ordained as an Anglican priest in 1851.
 
Lindsay Code No.: L0084
Surname of Participant: Lindsay
Earliest Known Proven Progenitor: Opie Lindsay b. 1745 d. 1815, married (1) Margaret Lamkin (2) Frances Jett (3) Sarah Howerton.  The great grandfather of Opie Lindsay (1745-1815) is believed to be Robert Lindsay b. 1641 of Fairfield Parish, Northumberland County, Virginia.
 
Lindsay Code No.: L0175
Surname of Participant: Lindsay
Earliest Known Progenitor: Samuel Lindsay, b. 1784, d. ?, m. Jean Somers, Sept 24, 1809 at Glasgow, Scotland.
 
Lindsay Code No.: L0177
Surname of Participant: Lindsay
Earliest Known Progenitor: Robert Lindsay, b. ca 1710 Northumberland County, Virginia, d. 11 September 1784 Fairfax County, Virginia, married Susanna (maiden name unknown, but thought to be Opie) in 1740.  Participant L0177 descends through son, Thomas Lindsay (1750 Mount Pleasant, Virginia - 1830 Fairfax County, Virginia).
 
 
 
 
 

 

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* It has been established that the use of the Lindsay surname, throughout this web site, implies all the accepted different spellings of the surname found in the Orthography section.
  • This web page was initially posted: April 25, 2005

  • This web page was last edited: March 16, 2010

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